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EP 172 Confusion, Clarity & Vision with Jennifer Hudye

Have you ever imagined how things would turn out in the future—the perfect man you'd marry, the beautifully obedient children you'd have— and then, years later, when things were messy and hard, you wondered what had gone wrong? 

I did. 

And what I had to learn was that the image I was holding all that time was not a vision. It was an expectation. 

Resources from the Episode:

AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT

Episode 172: Confusion, Clarity & Vision with Jennifer Hudye

Introduction

AUDREY: Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom. I’m honored to have Jennifer Hudye with us today.

AUDREY: I’ll read a tiny bit about her. She’s the founder and CEO of Vision Driven, which sounds awesome and very much aligns with us: a company devoted to helping people get crystal clear on their next big vision and then actually live into it. In 2016, she partnered with Cameron Herold, the author of Vivid Vision and a top coach to CEOs and COOs, and became a driving force behind the Vivid Vision process. Since then, she and her team have guided more than 2,000 companies, many run by leaders like Tony Robbins, Joe Polish, and Brendon Burchard, in crafting a compelling picture of their future. I also know you have a sister company called Conscious Copy & Co., where you help business leaders and individuals get their messaging out through copy. And I thought it was fascinating that you’ve been doing this almost since you started walking, building businesses in your teen years, launching them and selling them. You’ve had a bit of a wild ride, a different adventure than the average person, so I was really excited to talk to you about all of that.

AUDREY: Before we dive in, I want to read a little section from the book Vivid Vision. I’ll tell you in a bit how I got my hands on it and why it’s been so helpful to me personally. Moms especially, as I read this paragraph, I want you to replace the word “organization” or “company” with “family,” and think about your own family culture.

No one else in your organization [family] knows with any certainty what it is you want to build. At best, they guess. If you want your team [family] to build what you see, you must provide them with the means of understanding it. Otherwise, you will get different ideas of what to build. Everyone will grasp a different part, but no one will put it all together. No one will comprehend what it is you want to build as a whole. The result? Confusion. Everyone will have a unique, subjective experience, drawing a picture that looks nothing like anyone else’s.

AUDREY: In other words, your family is without alignment. So before we get to the concept of vision, which I want you to define for us, I’d love to start with this word: confusion. I saw one of your videos where you talked about what confusion is, and it was fascinating. I think if we talk about confusion the way you teach it, it will help us contrast it with vision.

What Confusion Really Is

JENNIFER: First off, thank you so much for having me, Audrey. I’m grateful to be here. My definition of confusion is thinking you should know something, but you don’t.

AUDREY: Wow.

JENNIFER: Confusion oftentimes has two components. The first is getting caught up in the how of something before you’ve ever identified the what, the where, and the why. Say you want to go on a cross-country road trip. You start driving, but you haven’t plugged in a destination. Then you start to feel this sense of confusion: “I don’t even know how I’m going to get there.” Well, have you identified where you’re going in the first place? We do this in so many places in our lives.

JENNIFER: The second component is fear: the internal story we tell ourselves about why we can’t have what we want. I’ve guided over 10,000 people and leaders through the Vivid Vision process over the last decade, and I can tell you that more often than not, it’s either the how or fear, but the fear is underneath it. Confusion can be a really convenient cover-up for avoiding the truth.

AUDREY: Yes.

JENNIFER: Because what if you state what it is that you want, and then you don’t get it?

AUDREY: You don’t get it. That’s right.

JENNIFER: What does that mean about you? So we have these fears running in the background, and we label them as confusion. We label them as being stuck, because that’s actually more convenient than knowing what we want. Because if we know what we want, then we have to be responsible to the knowing.

[Speaker to verify against audio: the next paragraph may be Jennifer continuing rather than Audrey.]

AUDREY: And then when we fall short, it’s a new way for us to be a failure. It lowers our status in our own eyes and creates even more self-deprecation and that horrible self-talk. And we don’t want to go there. So fascinating. Abraham Maslow, in one of his books I love, has a chapter called “The Need to Know and the Fear of Knowing.” I think that’s what you’re pointing to: we need to know, but we’re afraid to know, because knowing anything makes us responsible for that knowing. And the truth can liberate us. That’s a core idea we talk a lot about at The Mission Driven Mom, that the truth has the power to make us free. But often that truth is painful, and it must be faced and championed. That’s the work.

The Opposite of Clarity

JENNIFER: On the topic of confusion and being stuck, I’ve found a lot of people think the opposite of clarity is confusion. I haven’t seen that, working with clients or in my own experience. The opposite of clarity is the unknown. Clarity is the known: I have the information, the education, and the insight within myself to make a decision and move forward. The unknown is the opposite. I don’t have the information, the education, or the insight. It’s the open void. But there isn’t emotional baggage that comes along with the unknown.

JENNIFER: For example, when I went to college, I thought I wanted to be a lawyer. I’m partially dyslexic and I hate reading, which is ironic because I ended up building a writing company. In my first year I took some law classes and realized, wow, I really hate this. This is not for me. So for about two years, I didn’t know what I wanted, but I wasn’t emotionally distressed about it. I thought, okay, I just need to go try things, see what I like, and that will give me some clues about what I do want.

JENNIFER: As moms, or as we get older, we understand that for kids. We give them a lot of grace in those periods where they don’t know what they want. We say, no problem, go try what’s on the buffet menu, go have experiences. But then we don’t give ourselves that grace. And so we get locked in confusion, which is that middle ground between the known and the unknown: thinking we should know something, but we don’t. And that’s like an e-brake on our own evolution.

Vision vs. Expectation

AUDREY: Wow, that’s profound. And I think it’s exacerbated by our social media age, where you look out into the void and it looks like other people know what you think you should know. That creates even more internal turmoil: why haven’t I arrived?

AUDREY: I’d love to hear your thoughts on something. I know this personally because I’ve done it many times myself: I thought I was setting a vision, but I was actually setting an expectation. How would you distinguish between clarity, vision, and expectation? I feel like those words get jumbled into one thing, and we think they’re all the same, but they’re very different, and knowing the difference can help us. How would you define vision and hold it as something separate?

JENNIFER: That’s a great question. I think of expectation as how it needs to look in the process of getting somewhere. There’s a little bit of a white-knuckle grip on it, and a deflection from reality.

AUDREY: Yes.

JENNIFER: The definition of vision is simply a painted picture of something in the future. If you were to take a time machine into the future, what do you want it to look like, and how do you want to feel? You can do that in different time frames. I think there’s a lot of value in a ten-year vision. In our process, we use three years.

JENNIFER: But I think it’s so important to hold that vision lightly, to say, “I would like this reality, or something better,” knowing that we don’t have all the insight and sometimes life will redirect us somewhere even better than we could have imagined. Whereas expectation says it needs to look this way, and it needs to look this way in how I get there. It’s almost like getting in the way of this amazing energy called life, because we think we know better. Which I have done. Anyone listening who’s thinking, “I’ve done that,” I’ll put both my hands up.

AUDREY: Yes. One hundred percent. And I hadn’t thought about it quite this way until you explained it, but what I see in myself and in the women I work with is that expectation is often a stumbling block, whereas vision creates forward movement. I think expectation is a stumbling block because expectations are often completely arbitrary. They don’t come from a place of knowing, like you’re talking about. You’re not learning how to get there. You’re not being intentional. You’re layering life with something you hope is going to show up, but it’s not part of a plan. You don’t know how it’s going to come about, or you don’t have a clear sense of the reality and what you’d need to know to get there.

AUDREY: A vision is a very intentional process. An expectation is kind of a lazy man’s way of living: I think that if I live this way or do this thing, I should have this, so I’m going to expect it. But you don’t actually pay a price to know whether those two things even equate, or whether what you’re doing now can even cause the outcome you expect. With a vision, I love that you said a painted picture, because we’ve paid a price to know something about it. Then we’re working hard to know who we need to be to step into that vision and what needs to happen along the way. It’s a very proactive, intentional process.

Expectation or Faith?

JENNIFER: I do think there’s a level of expectation that needs to come along with realizing a vision. I would maybe upgrade the word to faith. About four and a half years ago, my husband and I decided to move cross-country from San Diego to Austin, Texas. It was at the peak of a lot of people moving to Texas, and the housing market was on fire. We had a lot of friends moving around the same time, and many of them were telling us stories about how they couldn’t find a house and were living in Airbnbs. We were in a holding pattern. We hadn’t fully decided we were making the move. We hadn’t hired movers or given notice on the place we were staying.

JENNIFER: For about eight months, I had crafted a vision. I listened to it in my own voice every single day on my walk. I was speaking into existence the exact home we were going to find in Austin: what it would look like when you walk in, open, spacious, expansive. Every window you look out, you see nature and trees. A clear separation between where we work and where we live. A place for us to host. Every room you walk into feels like home.

JENNIFER: So I was very clear on the vision, and I was walking along the beach one day with my husband, and I said, “We need to decide that we’re moving. Even though everybody else’s reality says the market isn’t set up for us to find this very specific place, I have faith that we will. But we’ve got to do our part.” So we gave our notice. We booked movers, even though we had not found the place yet. I said, “We’re moving in 30 days. If we have to put our stuff in storage and figure it out from there, we will. This is the move we need to make.” There was a level of expectation, or, I’d say, faith.

AUDREY: Faith. I like that better.

JENNIFER: Life was going to meet us and bring us that perfect place. And literally a couple of days later, we got a message from our realtor saying, “I’m pretty sure I found your dream place. It checks every box you’ve said you want.” The next day we flew to Austin and walked the place. We were in and out of Austin in maybe 90 minutes. We flew back home and said, “Yeah, that’s our place.” And we received the keys the exact day the movers were dropping off our stuff. So there was a level of expectation there, but there was also a level of clarity that we weren’t willing to settle for.

AUDREY: Yeah. The energy is different. If I say to somebody, “I expect you to do this,” that has a negative energy and connotation around it. But when I say, “I have faith that you will,” faith is a principle of action. Faith means we’re moving forward. We’re doing something. We’re acting in the world. I really love changing that out.

AUDREY: Your story reminds me of a podcast I did recently on Viktor Frankl and Man’s Search for Meaning. He tells the story of a man in the camp who said he heard a voice telling him he was going to be released on a certain day. He believed it with all his heart. And he died on that day. He was released from the camp through his own death, because he believed so much in that result.

Why Vivid, and Why Three Years?

AUDREY: Okay. So with all of those definitions established, let’s talk about this in a little more detail. What does the word vivid have to do with it, and why three years?

JENNIFER: If we define vision as stepping into a moment in the future and painting a picture of what you want to see, the more specific you can be, the better, because the more real it feels. If I asked you to tell me about your life right now in the area of your health, you could describe it in detail: what time you wake up, what time you go to bed, how your sleep is, your nutrition, how you feel in your body, what kind of exercise you do. You could describe it in vivid detail because it’s your reality. The same goes for your relationships, your vocation and where you spend your time and energy with your gifts, your finances, and your lifestyle: where you live, where you travel, your hobbies. The same is true for vision. You want to be able to describe in vivid detail what you want your life to look like.

JENNIFER: I use three years, and there have been a lot of studies on this, because it’s far enough in the future that you can dream big without needing to know the how, but close enough that you can get vivid and specific. It’s that sweet spot.

JENNIFER: But I think it all stems first from looking at your current reality and asking, where am I noticing longing and discontent in these five quadrants? Because that is life speaking to you, saying there’s unlived life here. If you’re thinking about your finances and you’re feeling stressed, feeling longing, feeling discontent, that’s a signal. There’s unlived life here, and something more wanting to come through. So if you could have it all your way, what would that look like?

What Do You Know for Sure?

AUDREY: I love that. In one of your videos, you gave three questions for when people are in confusion and chaos. The first question you recommended for moving out of the chaos and toward the vision was, “What do you know for sure?” And I was floored. As far back as I can remember in my adult life, every time things got really awful or I felt so overwhelmed I didn’t know how to move forward, I would steal time away, grab a journal, and ask myself that exact question. What do I know for sure? About myself, about my life, about the people I love, about what’s happening, about what I want? That open-ended question was so centering. It got me back into a more positive frame where I could start working toward something intentional instead of playing out all these things I didn’t really want.

JENNIFER: That’s exactly it, Audrey. It’s so easy for us to go to where we’re confused and ruminate on that. The very first place to go is clarity. Where do I already have clarity? What do I know for sure? In these areas of my life, what is a constant? And the more specific you can get, the better. If what I know for sure is that I want to be healthy, well, what do you know for sure about what that looks like? Health is fairly universal for most of us. We want to wake up energized. We want to go to sleep rested, feeling like we got the most out of our day, with a sense of fulfillment and satisfaction.

JENNIFER: Maybe it’s in the area of your family: “I want my kids to be thriving and healthy.” The question I always like to ask there is, how will you know that’s true? If you and I were a fly on the wall and saw your kids healthy and thriving, how would we know? When that’s realized, what does it look like?

JENNIFER: Then the opposite end of the spectrum, which we talked about earlier, is the unknown. What don’t you know about your future that you’re okay with? Maybe you’re not sure if you’ll be in a different house, and you’re okay with that. Or you’re not sure whether you’ll be in a particular job or role or start your own business, but you’re not ruminating on it. You’re just not in that season yet, or you don’t have enough research or insight.

JENNIFER: And the third question is, where do you think you should know what you want, but you don’t? That’s the confusion piece. I almost guarantee that any of the answers you list will fall into either a how question or a fear question. Maybe it’s, “I want to start a business, but I don’t know how to get customers,” or “I don’t know exactly what topic I want.” Or, “I want to move to a different state, but I’m not sure. Do we want to be closer to family, or to this?” Oftentimes it’s either a mindset issue, or you need more education or information.

A Vision Worth the Sacrifice

AUDREY: I love that. I’ll tell you really quickly. I launched The Mission Driven Mom as a hobby. I didn’t plan to be in business. I just wanted to help moms. It grew and surprised me. It grew pretty quickly, and I didn’t know what to do with that. After about four years, it kind of collapsed. The technical problem at the heart of it was a broken business model that wasn’t scalable and needed fixing. But the real reasons we went silent for a couple of years were exactly what you’re pointing to: the how and the fear. I didn’t know how to run a business properly, and I had a lot of fears that I couldn’t do it. What would the cost be for me and my family? What would it mean? What would I have to do? All those layers.

AUDREY: Fast forward a year or so, and my husband comes to me and says, “This program you’ve built has such a profound impact on people. I feel almost a call, or a responsibility, to champion it. I’ll help you. Will you come back to it with me? Let’s figure this out. We can do it.” Facing the fear and making a conscious decision to figure out the how let us back into it. The business still brought in some money each year, so there had been money sitting in the account. We hired some people and got going again. But we were starting from scratch in the sense that we had to wake everybody back up. I had gone quiet. I hadn’t been podcasting or anything.

AUDREY: Then we hit a wall last fall, when it was time for us to make a personal investment. The funds that had been sitting in the account were gone, and my husband said, “Okay, now it’s time for us to invest again.” We had invested the last time, and it had gone sour. And I just hit this wall. I said, “I’m not doing it. I’m not going to make a personal investment again.” He said, “What are you talking about? I thought that’s what we were doing. I thought we were going to do whatever it takes.” And I said, “Apparently I’ve drawn a line, and that’s my line, and I’m not willing to go past it.” He said, “But why?” And I said, “I don’t know.”

AUDREY: So for three or four weeks, I did not much else. I lived my life and took care of what I needed to, but most of my time was spent journaling, meditating, praying, studying, researching, and thinking, until I got to a point where I could see what this business could be that would be worth my sacrifice. That was the point I had to get to.

AUDREY: I think it’s the point parents have to get to. You want a baby. That sounds fun. You’ve always wanted to be a parent. You get into it, and a few years in, maybe five, maybe ten, maybe fifteen, you recognize it’s requiring more of you than you thought you’d have to give. You’re pushed up against a wall of decision. What am I willing to give for this? Why am I in it? What’s my vision of what it’s going to be? I didn’t want the cost of the money and the time and the sacrifice. I wanted a vision big enough to inspire me, and hopefully others, that I was willing to give my life energy to. Life is short. Life is precious. I have very little time here. If I’m going to give my life’s energy to something, it’s got to be a vision big enough.

AUDREY: And that’s really why Kate is with us. Right at that time, we had asked her to help build out a marketing strategy. I went to her and said, “Before you build it out, here’s where I’m at. Here’s the vision of what I’m willing to give my life energy for.” And she said, “Go buy the book Vivid Vision and write it out for me so I can see it.” That’s how I was introduced to the book and the process. It was so helpful. It was like a guidebook. I went point by point and did everything the book told me to do. In fact, I printed it off and brought it with me. It’s five or six pages. It’s our Vivid Vision, and we read it every quarter. It unifies the whole team. We’re in the thick of it now, really starting to gain some momentum and traction, and it’s a super exciting, rewarding journey to be on.

AUDREY: At the heart of that whole story, I’ve had to do the same thing in my family. I had expectations of what things were going to look like twenty years in the future, and when they didn’t look like that, I had to go back to the drawing board and decide on a new vision for my family. Who am I going to be in my family? What can I control? What’s my vision of what our family can look like that’s within the realm of my ability to control? It’s been so liberating to recreate a new, updated, upgraded vision that then fuels my everyday activities.

Why Vision Matters

AUDREY: I have a couple more questions for you as we finish up, but I want to read one other thing from the book, because I’d love to talk for a minute about the benefits: to you, to the clients you’ve worked with, and to others you’ve seen do the work of building a vision.

The benefits to employees [family members] of a Vivid Vision don’t stop there, however. This company-wide [family-wide] alignment also aids your team in becoming decision makers themselves. One goal as the company leader is to develop leaders within the organization.

AUDREY: And that is what mothers do. They’re leaders who develop leaders.

The more work you can responsibly delegate, the more you can focus on bigger issues. One hallmark of a good company [and a great family] is the ability to promote from within, which leads to a culture of trust, dedication, and willingness.

AUDREY: Those are universal principles that apply to any organization where we’re working together. So the benefits are tremendous, because not only do you have this clarity for yourself, but it’s helped me so much to sort through all the opportunities that start to come your way. When you move in a direction, people see that you’re in motion, opportunities come, and you have to say no most of the time. But what do you say no to? Whether it’s your time and energy as a mom, a friend, a spouse, an employee, or an owner, you have to say no most of the time. It’s only when you have this vivid vision that you know where and how and why to say no, and you can say it with confidence. And the people around you also know how to clear the path so you can make it through the forest.

AUDREY: So why is this a message that’s worth championing to you? What benefits have come from it, like this incredible experience you had with your home? Are there other personal experiences, or experiences with clients, that you’d love to share about why this matters so much?

JENNIFER: So many. I want to highlight a few things you shared. The vision is like an anchor: what are you going to dedicate your time and energy to, which is essentially your life force? What are you going to dedicate your life to? If we don’t intentionally think about the answer to that question, we get caught in default mode, where we just go through the motions of whatever life throws at us. I think about 95% of people live in that default mode, following whatever patterns society or family has said is just the way it’s got to be. There isn’t conscious creation, like you teach in your events. Setting a vision you would love is saying, this is what I’m going to dedicate my life to. It’s intentional, so I know how I’m going to show up every single day, aligned to that.

JENNIFER: In my own experience, Audrey, I grew up in a very entrepreneurial family. One of the gifts of that was that my parents always said you can do anything you put your mind to. It’s just a matter of determining what you’re going to put your mind to. Early on in college, I was really grateful to find some key mentors who helped me collapse the timeline on results that might have taken me ten or twenty years into three. One of them was Cameron Herold. I was building my first business, bootstrapping it and trying to make enough month by month to pay my bills, and he said, “No, this is not how you’re going to grow an extraordinary company. You want to imagine three years into the future. What is the company you’ve built?” I followed that advice and ended up building one of the top copywriting agencies in the personal development space in less than three years.

JENNIFER: Then I had another mentor, Mary Morrissey, who came at the perfect time. She said, “Yes, and it’s about so much more than business. What do you want for your life?” Vision is a spiritual quest. If you look at any spiritual text, it keeps coming back to vision. Without a brighter future, we stay stuck in our own circumstances. Instead of having a circumstance, like a health diagnosis, a family member passing away, or a miscarriage, we allow it to have us, and we get caught up in a loop and don’t know how to get out of it.

JENNIFER: In my own life, I love this work every day. It’s helped me build my dream business, and it’s helped me build my dream marriage. My husband and I have been together ten years. We sit down every three years, and every quarter for the last 35 quarters, and review our vision for our marriage and our family together: what we’re building and why.

AUDREY: Wow.

JENNIFER: And even in my own immediate family, I’ve held a vision of what our family gets to look like. We don’t have kids yet. We’re starting to prepare; we’re planning to have them next year. But I see a vision of the future where my kids are surrounded by loving, conscious, emotionally aware adults. Imagine what’s going to be possible for them if they’re surrounded by emotionally regulated adults. That inspires me every day to get it together and work on myself. It’s allowed me to build a dream life.

JENNIFER: But more than anything, I use it in my darkest moments. When my dad got really sick last year and the odds didn’t look great, one of the first things I did was say, okay, when we pray and when we’re communicating, we are holding the vision together of him being healthy and strong and well, and aligning my entire family around that vision. So I use it everywhere.

An Act of Faith

AUDREY: That’s so beautiful. And to your point about it being a spiritual journey, looping all the way back to the beginning of our conversation and talking about faith: it’s an act of faith. It’s a very courageous thing to spend your time on what you’re intentionally moving toward instead of reacting to the stimuli that come at you. And it’s a decision. You’re going to choose that instead. I call it a creator declaration. Some people might call it a set of affirmations; I call them truth statements. One of mine is that I intentionally choose my thoughts and words each day, because I know they are the seeds and soil from which my creations grow. That’s a lot of what we’re talking about.

AUDREY: And I would say it’s impossible to move intentionally toward something that isn’t pretty clear. How can you know what you’re trying to create unless you’ve taken the time to sit with yourself and imagine it? I love your example of walking each morning and talking to yourself. I tried for so long to visualize with images in my mind, because I thought that’s what everybody was saying to do. Then I realized I just make voice memos. Sometimes I say it out loud, or I listen to myself talking about what it is I’m working toward.

AUDREY: This vivid vision fuels our company. We’re all lifted every quarter as we’re reminded again: this is where we’re headed, this is what we’re doing. It’s so unifying. And that can happen everywhere. Like you’re saying, you can align with people by creating shared visions with them. What are we doing in this friendship? What are we doing in this family? What are we doing in this marriage? I feel like it’s so vital and not talked about enough, and your framework is so incredibly helpful.

One Thing to Do This Week

AUDREY: My last question: if there’s a mom listening and she could do just one thing this week to start creating a vision for her life, what would you have her do?

JENNIFER: I love this. For the mom who’s listening, especially if you’re thinking, “I keep hearing everybody tell me to get clear on what I want. If it were that easy, I would have done it. Where do I start?” this is what I recommend for all my clients. If you’re feeling a little rusty at connecting to your desires, every morning for the next seven days, and if you really want to do it, the next 30 days, take out a journal and start with the headline “What I Would Love.” Then start making bullet points about aspects of your vision: your desires, what you would love, what you want. Start with what you know for sure.

JENNIFER: You may find yourself repeating things over and over, and that’s okay. I think of it like turning on a tap that hasn’t been on for a long time. You’re going to get dark, murky water first. But if you keep the tap on, it keeps flowing, and eventually you get that crisp, clear water. The same thing goes for your desires. So do this as a little morning ritual. It should only take about three minutes to start connecting to that vision for your life. You can start with three years, or you can keep it open-ended if three years feels like a stretch, depending on where you are in your journey.

Closing

AUDREY: I love that. That’s a perfect place to start. I’ve done that so many times, and it’s so helpful as a kick-start: I want to stop being in drama. I want to stop being reactionary. I want to be a creator instead, have a vision, and create that vision. That’s so beautiful. Thank you so much for that. How can our listeners find you and your work? What projects or programs might benefit them? We’ll put all the links and resources with this podcast in the description.

JENNIFER: On social media, you can follow me on Instagram at [handle to verify]. On Facebook, it’s still my maiden name, Jennifer Hudye, H-U-D-Y-E. Our website is visiondrivenglobal.com [URL to verify], and there you’ll find our free Vivid Vision mind map, which has a series of questions you can start asking yourself to gain clarity on your three-year vision. That would be a great first step.

AUDREY: I love that so much. And for those of you following The Mission Driven Mom, we still have some tickets available for our event this fall in Utah, in the beautiful mountains with the fall colors. We’re going to talk all about moving from drama to creator, and we’ll put a vision together at the end of the day. We’d love to see you there. Links for all of these resources are below.

AUDREY: Jennifer, thank you so much for being here. It was so interesting and enlightening to hear your take on some key words we use all the time, and to realize we sometimes think about them in ways that aren’t helpful. Hopefully these new definitions and new ideas about how to create a vision will bless our moms. Thank you for all you’ve shared, for your life’s work, and for being who you are so you could share what you’ve learned and who you’ve become. Thanks for joining us.

JENNIFER: Thank you, Audrey.