EP 160 What Disney has been teaching us about being victims

Resources from the Episode: 

• Mothers of Creation - Provo, Utah - September 26th
• EP 159 You're probably not a victim. Except you kind of are.
   

Here is something I need you to know before you watch Frozen again.

The moment everyone cheers. Elsa in her ice castle, belting "Let It Go," finally free, finally herself. That moment is not the triumph we think it is. That moment is Elsa playing the victim.

Lindsey Wright is back on the podcast this week, and she has done something I think is truly brilliant. She took the six victim types we've been studying and matched each one to a Disney character. The result is one of the most clarifying conversations we've ever recorded.

AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT

Introduction

AUDREY: Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom. So grateful to have you with us today. I want to ask you a question. If every Disney movie only exists because there’s a problem, what if those beloved stories are actually teaching us how to be victims? We’re going to talk about that today.

AUDREY: This is Lindsey Wright who’s with me today. We recently did a podcast where we talked about victim types — all six of them. We broke them down, gave you some detail on a couple so you could really begin to understand how they work and what they are. We talked about how when we can see ourselves in these victim types, it helps us identify the fact that we’re acting like a victim, and then we can start to work on a way out. Lindsey mentioned this a couple of different times: naming things can be so incredibly helpful. It helps us better understand what it is that we’re doing and why we’re doing it. For me, that’s been a catalyst for change, because I don’t want to be the dummy or the avoider or the quitter — but how do I be different? Lindsey has built out a beautiful framework for that which she teaches inside our Mothers of Creation community. If you haven’t listened to our previous episode, we encourage you to go back and listen, but you can also start here and go back afterward. Today we’re going to dive deeper into the victim types by talking about Disney movies — some core stories that we’re probably all very familiar with.

AUDREY: Before we do that, Lindsey, as you were building this out, why did you head toward these Disney stories? What tipped you off to the idea that these characters could help illustrate the victim types?

Why Disney?

LINDSEY: First of all, I think because Disney is so much a part of the culture. I grew up with Little Mermaid, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast — we had never seen movies like that before. It was just part of my growing up. And Disney has long been associated with family. I felt like it was something we could all understand quickly, something that would help make these abstract ideas a little more concrete.

LINDSEY: Everything we watch, everything we listen to, everything we read is trying to teach us something or convince us of something. Are we aware of the lessons we’re receiving? I thought if I could give people an image — something familiar — that would be really helpful as we teach these different victim types. And once I started going, I realized a movie is not a movie unless it has some drama. That’s why we watch it. There’s a problem, characters react to it, and we would not enjoy the movie if the characters always stayed in the drama. What we want to see is transformation. So it’s a rich resource — you see not only the victim types, but how each character gets out of them. I’ve really tried to stay away from the villains because I want us to see that these victim types are all of us. We embody all of them, some more than others. But that also means that all of us have the tools to get out of them.

The Avoider: Elsa (Frozen)

AUDREY: Let’s start with the avoider. Who did you choose for this one?

LINDSEY: I’m not trying to destroy Disney movies, but the character I chose for the avoider is Elsa. If you watch just a clip of ‘Let It Go,’ you can see all of the things we’ve connected to this victim type. She’s afraid. She doesn’t want to lose control. She fears the emotional discomfort of reaching out to people, so she avoids it all. She builds her ice castle in the mountains, decides she’s going to be by herself. She doesn’t trust herself. She doesn’t think anything is going to change or get better. She can’t face it. She’s overwhelmed. She’s stuck.

LINDSEY: And in the theater, that moment — that ‘Let It Go’ song — is meant to be a girl-power high point. You go, Elsa. You show them. The singing is beautiful, she’s being herself. And yet — actually, she’s being a victim. We know this because her reaction causes problems. What we see at the end of the movie is that she has to learn something about herself. She has to learn that love is more powerful than fear. That relationships are more valuable than anything she could do by herself. There’s something she has to learn about who she is — and that is a pattern I’ve noticed over and over as I’ve connected these victim types to Disney characters.

AUDREY: What’s so interesting is that Elsa is the hero. She’s the one with superpowers. Her sister Anna is the one who’s ‘normal’ — and yet Anna is the one problem-solving, taking risks, facing fears, doing hard things. Elsa just sits in her castle and avoids and blames, while Anna is actively fixing things. Elsa technically has more power than her sister, who is the one making things happen. Which tells us a lot about what we’re doing when we play the victim. We’re snuffing out our own power.

AUDREY: Why do you see Elsa as the avoider rather than the quitter?

LINDSEY: She’s an avoider because she doesn’t even engage at all. The quitter engages and then it gets too hard, and so they quit. Elsa is just ‘no, I’m not going to have anything to do with it.’ She’s been avoiding all the way along — from the very beginning, putting the gloves on her hands — and then she does the ultimate act of avoidance. Her parents were teaching her some of those behaviors, and she just plays them out as she gets older and the consequences get bigger.

AUDREY: One other thought: we mentioned last time that this is built around the drama triangle that Stephen Karpman taught — the simple triangle where, when we’re in problem stories, there’s always a victim, a rescuer, and a persecutor. What we didn’t mention is that the whole reason the drama triangle exists is because everyone wants the victim role. They’re all vying to be seen as the victim. Even persecutors don’t just show up wanting to be persecutors — they want to be seen as victims too. And one of the most important things to understand about this is that when we play the victim, we actually show up to others as a persecutor.

LINDSEY: Exactly. Elsa feels like a persecutor to the people around her. She’s playing the victim, but when others try to empower and encourage her to take action, she lashes out like a persecutor. And it shows how subtle some of these victim orientations can be. She feels like she’s doing the right thing. The avoider feels like they’re doing something — but they’re reacting, making their own little plans in their own little world, convinced they’ll figure it all out alone.

AUDREY: So how does Elsa’s story become untangled? Because the most powerful movies and stories speak to us because of the transformation of a character — and that’s who we all are, characters in our own story wanting transformation.

LINDSEY: What we’re waiting for is when is she going to wake up and realize how powerful she is, that she’s a creator, that she can do it. And as soon as the character sees it, it sparks something in us and makes us come to life because we identify with them. Maybe I’m a creator. Maybe I’m powerful. Maybe I can do things I didn’t think I could do.

LINDSEY: The truth the avoider needs to understand is that right now is what I can control. Elsa learns that fear is hard to control — but love? You can control that. We’re in control when we’re acting in love toward ourselves and toward other people. That’s the shift she makes. What I want right now is this relationship with my sister. What I want right now is to have love guiding me instead of fear. That’s what she needed, and that’s what the people around her needed.

The Quitter: Simba (The Lion King)

AUDREY: Let’s move on to the quitter. Who did you choose?

LINDSEY: The character I chose for the quitter is Simba from The Lion King. The quitter starts going, but then it gets really hard and they stop. We see Simba’s dad showing him the kingdom — he’s so excited, ‘I just can’t wait to be king.’ And then his dad is murdered. His uncle tells him to run, that everyone will hate him, that he has to get out. And so he quits. Hakuna Matata. Goes off and lives this carefree life.

LINDSEY: But it’s not as his real self. His power and potential are snuffed out. It’s a mistaken, distorted identity. He’s avoiding the pain of who he’s actually supposed to become by abandoning the path.

AUDREY: And then — Rafiki. That moment in the movie.

LINDSEY: Yes. We’re right back to identity. Simba has to remember who he is. He is the son of a king. He is the rightful king. He has to take responsibility — and he hasn’t been, wandering around doing Hakuna Matata. He has to remember that identity and go back to claim his spot. That’s why we love the ending. He becomes who he was meant to be, reaches his potential.

LINDSEY: The tool for the quitter is that they can practice the principles, rely on the truth they know, and patiently wait. Because principles work. Baby steps. Principles always work. I know that if I take responsibility, remember who I am, work my way back, renegotiate the relationships that were damaged — those baby steps will get me back to where I need to be. And Simba does that. It’s so powerful to watch.

The Remaining Victim Types: A Quick Overview

AUDREY: Give us just a little context on the Disney characters you chose for the rest of the victim types.

LINDSEY: For the martyr, this was a tricky one I’m still working on. We have Mother Gothel from Tangled. I was hesitant to use her because she’s the villain — and I want us to see that victim types aren’t villains, they’re just our natural tendencies. But she’s very much ‘look at all the things I do for you, Rapunzel, and you’re not grateful, I’ve suffered and sacrificed everything for you.’ I’m still working on some other ideas for that one.

LINDSEY: For the doormat, I chose Cinderella. She’s loving and kindhearted, but she’s afraid of conflict. She waits to be rescued. She doesn’t want to stand up for herself. But by the end of the movie, she learns her worth — that she’s worthy and valuable, that she can be assertive and have boundaries. That’s why we love the ending. She starts out as a doormat. People walk all over her and she allows it.

LINDSEY: The dummy is a work in progress — I’ve been talking to my kids about it all day. The dummy claims they cannot solve their problems. They want somebody to rescue them or just make it go away. The character we landed on is Kuzco from The Emperor’s New Groove — the emperor who turns into a llama. He doesn’t want to accept responsibility and claims he doesn’t know how to solve things. And as he’s doing that, he’s creating more and more problems. He has to learn something fascinating: that people don’t actually like him. He has to have an identity shift in how he sees himself in relationship to others. He sees himself as superior — it’s all ego. But other people are resources. We have to be willing to ask for help and learn how to rely on people in the right way.

LINDSEY: The last one is the chameleon, and I chose the Genie from Aladdin. He’s just whatever you need him to be — he’s forgotten who he really is. And Aladdin is almost the same — he shows up as someone completely different so that Jasmine will like him, afraid to expose his real identity. But that’s not what Jasmine liked. And in the end, it’s not what saves him either. It’s understanding who he actually is, and how his real strengths are exactly what’s needed to solve the problem.

Closing Thoughts and Challenge

AUDREY: Of course, we watch these stories because we’re waiting for the transformation — and that’s what Lindsey and I are passionate about in this work. This framework has changed everything for us. The ability to self-identify when we’re playing a victim role means we might still do it for a bit, but we can often catch ourselves. We have common language in our homes. Our families can help catch us. Every bit of information we glean around this empowers us to be different, to work our way out of the drama cycle and be creators instead.

AUDREY: This is what we’re doing all year inside our Mothers of Creation community. We have our in-person event in the fall — September 26th in Provo, Utah. We’re going to spend the whole day talking about problem stories and victim types, reframing those stories, moving out of victimhood into a creator orientation, building creator declarations, and so much more. And the community is open now — as soon as you sign up for the event, you get instant access to Lindsey’s trainings and everything we’ve been building together.

AUDREY: Our challenge to you today: as you watch Disney movies or any movie, look for a victim type. Watch how the character plays into it, what problems it causes, and how they come across as a persecutor to the people around them. Then watch how the transformation happens — when their identity shifts, when they come to see that they truly are a creator, when they learn the truth about who they are and what they’re capable of, and become powerful once again.

AUDREY: Thanks for joining us today. If this is of interest to you and you want to know more, we would love to see you in the community. And we would love to meet you in person this fall. Visit themissiondrivenmom.com and sign up for the Mothers of Creation Conference. Thank you so much for being here. We hope this is helpful, valuable, and motivating for you — and we will see you next time.